Never Really Saved to Begin With?

Ben (Kangaroodort) of Arminian Perspectives has put up a great post here showing how those who claim that all who fall away were ‘never saved to begin with’ would have to very creatively interpret quite a few passages in the Bible to support that doctrine.

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Does Christ’s Intercession Make Us Eternally Secure?

In the previous post entitled Is God Able to Keep People from Falling Away?, I posted the answer J.C. Thibodaux gave to TurretinFan on this topic in their debate about eternal security and the warning passages of Scripture. As the debate has continued, TurretinFan has asked JCT about how Christ’s intercession affects our salvation:

TurretinFan asks,

Given your comment, “God can do whatever He pleases within the range of His holy nature, nobody prevents Him,” is it pleasing and within the range of Christ’s holy nature to save to the uttermost those whom he wishes to save by making intercession for them?

Answer:

Most definitely. Just as the priests in the Old Testament made intercession for the people, so Christ eternally makes intercession for His, and is our Advocate with the Father if we sin, and the Mediator of the better covenant God has made with us. Unlike the Levitical priests which were imperfect and subject to death, Christ lives forever and is perfect, and so can save to the utmost, in contrast with the animal sacrifices by the Levite priests that could not. He being the sole way to God, our salvation wholly relies upon His mediation between ourselves and the Father. The question as far as the conditionality of salvation is concerned is not whether Christ makes intercession for us, but whether He’ll do so for one who departs from Him. He indicates that He won’t, as He states,

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:33, similar statement made in 2 Timothy 2:12)

Some may argue that Christ’s intercession will imperatively keep all genuine believers from apostatizing, but such an idea is not found in scripture. Indeed the fact that His confession of us before the Father is conditioned upon our confession of Him indicates conditionality. Others point to Christ’s prayer in John 17,

…keep through Your name those whom You have given Me… (John 17:11b)

The conditional nature of salvation comes to light when one considers that God keeps us through faith (1 Peter 1:5), which we are exhorted to hold fast to, and told that not all have done so,

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck… (1 Timothy 1:19)

It must be noted that Paul does not distinguish the latter as some superficial, ineffectual form of faith; nor would the exhortation to hold to faith be coherent if no one with true faith could ever forfeit it. The theme of continuance in the faith of Christ as being necessary to our being forgiven runs throughout the New Testament, many wicked acts such as unforgiveness being incompatible with saving faith:

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15)

This sentiment is also reflected in the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18. When scriptural warnings (including the three in question) indicate consequences of damnation for believers who unrepentantly commit certain sins, taking them as serious and violable is not salvation “by works” as was erroneously insinuated in the opening statements –such actions necessarily reflect a heart no longer in union with Christ.

So Christ saving those He wishes to the uttermost by making intercession for them is perfectly in line with conditional security, since the only ones He will confess before the Father are those who hold fast to their confession of Him.

(posted with J.C. Thibodaux’s permission)

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Is God Able to Keep People From Falling Away?

I have been following the debate that J.C. Thibodaux and TurretinFan have been having on the issue of eternal security vs. conditional security and more specifically what purpose the warning passages in Scripture serve. Since TurretinFan’s question and JCT’s answer go straight to the heart of the debate between eternal securists and conditional securists, and since I thought JCT’s answer was very well-stated, with his permission I’m posting his response:

TurretinFan asks,

Given your comment, “God desires that none of His apostatize,” (yet seemingly God might not prevent apostasy) is God able to keep people from falling away into apostasy or does something (man’s free will?) stop God from keeping them from falling?

Answer:

God can do whatever He pleases within the range of His holy nature, nobody prevents Him. If God didn’t care if we apostatized, He wouldn’t give us sustaining grace enough to endure. The fact that men can still fall away despite His provision is easily reconciled by the fact that He doesn’t choose to apply His grace irresistibly. I’d pointed out this concept in 1 Corinthians 10:13, which states that God won’t allow us to be tempted beyond what we can endure. ‘Can’ does not amount to ‘will;’ believers sometimes do fall, but due to our own failures, not want of God’s help.

His provision is evidenced in several passages often mistaken for support of eternal security. John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:35-39 for instance express that no one will ever tear us away from God (as countless martyrs for Christ have by their deaths triumphantly testified), but nowhere does scripture indicate that it’s impossible to willfully walk away from Him, since apostates themselves don’t separate/pluck themselves from God -scripture clarifies that God the Father Himself severs those who don’t remain in Christ (John 15:1-6). Hence, arguments such as the sealing with the Holy Spirit guaranteeing eternal security miss the mark as to how one can be lost: Since the sovereign God has both power and prerogative to cast out those who don’t abide, His own seal is no bar to Him doing so. Having the Spirit is both a gift and responsibility, for those in which the Spirit dwells are the temple of God,

…If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. (1 Corinthians 3:17b)

According to the riches of His grace, God preserves us, sustains us, and works in us to will and do His good pleasure, yet the apostles still plead with us, “not to receive the grace of God in vain” (2 Corinthians 6:1b). God is able to keep us from stumbling and to make the weak in faith to stand (Romans 14:4), yet we are still told,

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

It’s only by God’s grace that the heart can be established in persevering, but the scriptures never portray the operation of grace as something unconditional or irresistible. Grace to endure is never merited, nor is it inescapably instilled, but when enduring temptation it’s written,

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)

So God is able to keep us from falling, but doesn’t choose to do so apart from our willing cooperation (we being freed by His grace to serve Him -Hebrews 12:28), and thus He warns us against the real dangers of apostasy and exhorts us to seek Him,

…be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall. (2 Peter 1:10b)

(J.C. Thibodaux and TurretinFan’s debates can be found at both of these sites: In Death or Life.org and at Turretin Debate Blog)

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Romans 8:38-39: Nor any other creature

“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:35-39

Awesome passage.  This passage was written to a church under heavy persecution.  I love reading it myself and knowing come what may, come the legions of Hell itself, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. 

Sadly, though, those words of encouragement are taken and misconstrued to try to support the doctrine of eternal security.  Eternal securists point to the words “nor any other creature shall be able to separate us” to say that nothing can separate us from Christ’s love, not even us since we’re creatures too.  I personally think that’s scraping for evidence for the doctrine, but nonetheless, we’ll address that argument. 

In John 15, Jesus says, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.  I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.” John 15:1-10

Points from the above verses:

1. Jesus likens Himself to a vine, us to branches, and the Father to the gardener (or husbandman).
2. The branches that are unfruitful are cut off by God the Father. 
3. The cut off branches are gathered and burned. 
4. They way to remain in Christ’s love is to obey His commands.

To recap, the eternal securist argument from Romans 8 is that no created thing can separate us from Christ’s love, but in John 15 we see that it is the Father (He’s not created) Who removes the “unfruitful.”  John 15 also declares that the way to remain in Christ’s love is to obey His commands.  So from this we can see that the passage in Romans wasn’t making a declaration of eternal security, but rather reassuring us that nothing could force us from Christ.  That’s not to say that those who refuse to obey Christ’s commands are assured of salvation.  To the contrary, Jesus says that the Father will cut them off.

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Ephesians 1:13, 14: The seal

The fact that people who have been saved can reject their salvation (Salvation) and hence be cut off, is clearly shown in several passages from the Bible, a few of which we have already discussed in my other posts. (Christ is Salvation, The Necessity of Abiding in Christ, Loss of Salvation: The Process, and Covenant)

Something that many people tend to get confused on is the Bible’s promises and assurances to the believer.  This goes back to our recent discussion on Covenant.  God does make promises to the believer, but they are conditioned on the believer abiding in Christ.  It would be a pretty lopsided arrangement otherwise, if God sent His Son to die for us, gave us all the strength and grace we needed to overcome sin, yet we reject Him and choose to live in a life of sin, should we then still expect God to reward us with eternal life?  No, and that’s what the warnings in the Bible are meant to address is the fact that God will not reward such a person, but will punish them with the rest of the ungodly. 

One of the most commonly referrenced verses to try to prove eternal security is Ephesians 1:13,14.  

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13, 14)

Eternal securists put the emphasis on the word “sealed”.  When I began examining the verse, the first First I looked at what the word for seal meant exactly, so I looked its definition up in a concordance and from what I can tell it has two possible implications in this context. Briefly stated, 1) a mark, in this case it would be a mark put on us by God’s that we are indeed His. 2) It said that another possible use for a seal would be as security from Satan.  I think that definition #1 fits the context the best, though let’s discuss definition #2 first.  We are indeed kept by the power of God and are not under the control of Satan, but of course this doesn’t change the facts 1) we are tempted by Satan, though God gives us the power to overcome that temptation and 2) we still have the free will to choose to sin, which I would say also has the implication that we have the choice to even choose to go back to a lifestyle of sin as well.   

I think that definition #1 fits best, though as I will explain.  Let’s take another look at that verse: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13, 14)  Notice very carefully the language employed here; Paul is using legal terminology.  The seal of the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance. 

This brings us right back to our discussion on God’s covenant with His people.  God more than lives up to His part of the bargain by providing us His Son, His Spirit, His grace to overcome sin, and eternal life to the faithful.  However, we still have a part in this process because God still allows men the freewill to choose whether they will serve Him and follow His ways or whether they would choose follow a life of sin.  So the seal that God gives us is the mark that we’re His and the earnest of our inheritance, but if we choose to break our covenant with Him, God Himself cuts us off from salvation (John 15:1-6 and Romans 11:17-22), which is His right and would be so even in the manner of human transactions. 

So it is God Who puts His seal on us and it is also God Who has the right to remove it as well. 

 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:28-31)

“But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.” (Hebrews 10:39)

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Covenant

My husband and I needed and purchased a car during our Christmas vacation 2006. When we bought it, we contracted ourselves to repay the bank for lending us money to get the car from the dealership. Sure we drove it off the lot, but the car was only ours as long as we kept our agreement with the bank. If at any time we defaulted on our payments, since it was the bank who ultimately bought it, the bank would have had every right to repossess the vehicle. These kinds of legalities are a common part of our day to day existence and we’ve come to understand them.

Salvation is much the same really. I’ve mentioned before that Christ is Salvation and as such that it is necessary to abide in Him. Another aspect that I’d like to discuss is that this salvation, this eternal life that we’re promised is also contractual or to put it Biblically, a covenant that we enter into.

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?” (Hebrews 12:22-25)

When we accept Christ, our Salvation, we not only enter into an unfathomable relationship with the Divine, but we also enter into covenant with Him. Now the awesome thing about a covenant with Christ is that God gives us absolutely everything needed to live up to our end with the strength and grace to overcome sin and live for Him and even the mercy to forgive our shortcomings.

“May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Hebrews 13:20, 21)

We are still given a choice, though, as to whether we will serve Him or whether we will serve sin. Now if we breach our contract or covenant with Him by choosing not to live for and serve Him, God is released from obligation of any promises that He has made. Just as it was the bank bought the car and had the power and right to repossess it for breach of contract, in the same way God is not obligated to give salvation or eternal life to those who would not keep their covenant with Him.  To the contrary, in Hebrews 10 God calls those who break covenant with Him (those who were sanctified by the blood but deliberately keep on sinning) enemies and promises judgement and “raging fire”.   

“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:28-31)

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Loss of Salvation: The Process

Many people, especially opponents of conditional security, question most the process of falling away. The most common question is: how many sins does a person have to commit to lose their salvation? Will God send a person to Hell for committing one sin? I do not believe that salvation is unconditionally secure nor do I believe that it is easily lost; the truth lies in between. I do not believe that one sin will necessarily send you to Hell but that this loss of salvation comes when we willfully choose that we’d rather live in our life of sin over our walk with God/relationship with Christ.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:26-31

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Hebrews 10:38, 39

Christians do sin, though, true Christians sin, but then when conviction comes they repent of their sins and make it right with God.

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1, 2

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ” 1 John 1:7-9

On a side note, I’d like to say that I don’t buy the “we have to sin everyday” philosophy, Scripture clearly shows that to be false.

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” Romans 6:5-7

I just wanted to list one quick reference though there are more that could be cited.

I believe that it is a matter of the heart. It is a matter of Whom or what we’d rather serve. Will we choose to live for God and to seek to please Him or would we rather live in sin and pursue the “lusts of the flesh”?

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The Necessity of Abiding in Christ

From cover to cover, the Bible is the story of God’s relations with man. From the Garden of Eden to the plagues and destruction in Revelation, I see a God Who is reaching out and calling to man to have a relationship with Him. Though God can change our wills, He rarely does, preferring instead to allow us free will and giving us the choice to willingly come to Him. The same God Who does not force us to come to Him initially does not force us to stay in Him and with Him either. In my previous post, I discussed Christ Is Salvation.  Here are some Scriptures which stress necessity of remaining in Him.

“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life.” (1 John 2:24, 25)

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6)

Besides the verses I just quoted there are also exhortations given by the apostles and the calls to persevere that further lend credence to this concept that abiding and continuation in the faith is not automatic.

“Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.” (Acts 13:43)

“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Paul speaking to disciples from Lystra)(Acts 14:22)

From these appeals to continue (as well as stated consequences for not continuing), we can see that perseverance is conditioned on the Christian choosing to use the grace that God gives to remain in the faith. 

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Christ is Salvation

THE NATURE OF SALVATION

When many people thing of salvation, they think of the event at which they “got saved.”  While salvation is not devoid of this event, this view is too limited in scope and tends to lead errors in how one perceives salvation.  I believe that the best way to see salvation is as less as an event and more as a person: the Person of Christ. Christ said, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, and you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:1-6)

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6)

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)

“When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Colossians 3:4)

“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” (1 John 5:11)

Knowing this aspect of salvation helps us to realize that salvation is not easily lost but is kept as long as we abide or remain in the One Who is our Salvation. 

Thank You, God for Your unending love and mercy Who would stoop Yourself to patiently remain with and be faithful to me, a completely undeserving person.  I love You, dear Lord.

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