I have been following the debate that J.C. Thibodaux and TurretinFan have been having on the issue of eternal security vs. conditional security and more specifically what purpose the warning passages in Scripture serve. Since TurretinFan’s question and JCT’s answer go straight to the heart of the debate between eternal securists and conditional securists, and since I thought JCT’s answer was very well-stated, with his permission I’m posting his response:
TurretinFan asks,
Given your comment, “God desires that none of His apostatize,” (yet seemingly God might not prevent apostasy) is God able to keep people from falling away into apostasy or does something (man’s free will?) stop God from keeping them from falling?
Answer:
God can do whatever He pleases within the range of His holy nature, nobody prevents Him. If God didn’t care if we apostatized, He wouldn’t give us sustaining grace enough to endure. The fact that men can still fall away despite His provision is easily reconciled by the fact that He doesn’t choose to apply His grace irresistibly. I’d pointed out this concept in 1 Corinthians 10:13, which states that God won’t allow us to be tempted beyond what we can endure. ‘Can’ does not amount to ‘will;’ believers sometimes do fall, but due to our own failures, not want of God’s help.
His provision is evidenced in several passages often mistaken for support of eternal security. John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:35-39 for instance express that no one will ever tear us away from God (as countless martyrs for Christ have by their deaths triumphantly testified), but nowhere does scripture indicate that it’s impossible to willfully walk away from Him, since apostates themselves don’t separate/pluck themselves from God -scripture clarifies that God the Father Himself severs those who don’t remain in Christ (John 15:1-6). Hence, arguments such as the sealing with the Holy Spirit guaranteeing eternal security miss the mark as to how one can be lost: Since the sovereign God has both power and prerogative to cast out those who don’t abide, His own seal is no bar to Him doing so. Having the Spirit is both a gift and responsibility, for those in which the Spirit dwells are the temple of God,
…If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. (1 Corinthians 3:17b)
According to the riches of His grace, God preserves us, sustains us, and works in us to will and do His good pleasure, yet the apostles still plead with us, “not to receive the grace of God in vain” (2 Corinthians 6:1b). God is able to keep us from stumbling and to make the weak in faith to stand (Romans 14:4), yet we are still told,Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)
It’s only by God’s grace that the heart can be established in persevering, but the scriptures never portray the operation of grace as something unconditional or irresistible. Grace to endure is never merited, nor is it inescapably instilled, but when enduring temptation it’s written,Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)
So God is able to keep us from falling, but doesn’t choose to do so apart from our willing cooperation (we being freed by His grace to serve Him -Hebrews 12:28), and thus He warns us against the real dangers of apostasy and exhorts us to seek Him,
…be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall. (2 Peter 1:10b)
(J.C. Thibodaux and TurretinFan’s debates can be found at both of these sites: In Death or Life.org and at Turretin Debate Blog)
Good Evening. I would like to share a few thoughts I have. I do believe in God’s sustaining Grace to the believer.
However, I see there are many non-believers who claim to be believers. They cannot sustain themselves or each other! They wither under the hot sun, have no root, and are easily plucked away or entangled in thorns.
The reason why I am writing is that the husband of a friend of mine recently committed suicide. His final act on this earth was of abandoning his family and showing what a defeated life he had. No victory. There is a complete difference between the sheep and wolves. Wheat and tares. And it all is within, in the soul and heart.
A believer endures persecution and trials given to us for a time. These prove the work of the Spirit within us. We may be in dire straits like Job, depressed and beyond our ability to endure like King David and the Apostle Paul. But this proves we are being lifted up above our circumstances, and/or are being protected through our circumstances. The power we rely on is not ours, but God’s.
I see that many profess God but do not possess God. These are the ones who walk away or fall away, eventually. They may come to a solid born again experience later, and we may see it if we are around when it happens. But who knows? Only God does.
If however, we die and have exhibited only rotten fruit, lived a life of defeat, had no hope at the end, no rejoicing, gave no glory to God, believed the lies of Satan that we can maintain control over our own self, and give no testimony to the goodness and power of God, we can be accused of being unsaved.
Non-believers don’t always have to look like a grungy, raunchy individual, or be a Mafia mobster. Many non-believers look squeaky clean, knock on doors in the neighborhood, appear to do good deeds and can quote scriptures. Yet they are as unsaved as the serial killer or rich atheist.
Jesus prays for His sheep, as he did for the Apostle Peter. As a High Priest in heaven, that is one of Jesus’ promises to us. And the Holy Spirit in us is greater than us. And greater than the temptor in the world. The Holy Spirit’s promise is that He will reveal and guide us into Truth. Empowering us to do God’s Will.
What does the non-believer have? Only self. He is already condemned, the bible says. The pharisees were, in appearance, righteous looking to the eyes of man. Yet Jesus said they were not His. They were never his. Ever. Not once His, then not, then were again, then were not again. The dying non-believer was never a believer. He or she never entered the promised land. They only wander around in their wilderness of heart, though mingling with the believers.
Only a believer has the promises of God for today and for tomorrow. Since we are already His, our citizenship is no longer of this world. We are now “aliens” or foreigners here. And our new birth certificates are held in the palm of God, where no moth or rust can destroy them.
But for the non-believer, they only have their masks, or their sheepskin to hide under. They do not belong to the Shepherd, and have nothing holding on to them.
If I am still understanding the believer’s position, we are one with Christ. And God will never wash His blood off our heart. When in the storms of life, we don’t have to swim hard to get to the rock in the ocean, we don’t have to grip hard from being pulled away from the rock, we are already a part of that Rock. But the unbeliever has nothing.
So who are walking away from their salvation? Not the believer. The non-believer never had it. While we have the new heart of Christ, they only have their sheep skins.
Now, I would never tell this right now to my girlfriend. She is grieving and thinks her husband is waiting for her in heaven. I pray God will give her and me further Truth about the false believers. I am only beginning to this intensive study.
I would appreciate your thoughts too. Thank you so much.
Jerrilynn,
Thanks for stopping by and thanks for commenting. I would agree with you on two major points:
1) There are those who claim or profess Christianity who are not Christians at all (also called false professors).
2) God’s grace is sustaining.
On God’s grace:
I am in strong agreement with you on the fact that God gives us both the grace and the power to overcome all sin and temptation that we encounter. Yet God gives us a free will. Despite being given the grace and the power to overcome temptation, Christians do sin. It is because God has given us free will, a choice in the matter. We are given the opportunity to use the power and grace that God gives us to resist and overcome sin or we have the choice to succumb to that sin. You see, God wants a people who love Him and who willingly serve Him.
Think about this: the Bible says that God loves the world (John 3:16) and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Despite this, though, many do perish and many do not come to repentance. Is it because God does not want them saved? No, the Bible makes it clear that God wants all to come to repentance. The dividing line is that God wants men to choose to serve Him, and even though God gives men the grace (for it is by grace that we are saved), even though it is God Who draws men to Himself to be saved, He does not force them to accept Him. Just as God gives men everything necessary to become saved initially but also gives us the choice to choose or reject Him, He also continues to give us a choice in whether we will continue to live for Him. God wants a people who will willingly serve Him.
Those who choose a life of sin after they have known God, are those who eventually fall away. Those who would turn back or choose to return to their life of sin over their walk with God are those to whom the warning passages are written. Carefully read the wording:
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” Hebrews 6:4-6
Has the unbeliever been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted of the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age? No. Also, the unbeliever has no need to be “brought back to repentance” since they never repented in the first place. I think it pretty clear that those who are being warned in this verse were saved.
Addressing the points you raised:
1) Jesus does pray for us, and as a result we are given “help in our time of need” and we are given grace to overcome our temptations. The questions left remaining are a) will Christ force us to overcome temptation? and b) will Christ force a person to remain in Him if the person is no longer willing? We are given everything we need to overcome sin; we are given everything we need to be overcomers and to “finish the race set before us”, we just have to hold what has already been provided for us.
2) Our names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Yes, they are, but we also read in Revelation that there are circumstances that can cause one’s name to be blotted out as well.
3) We are His sheep; He is our Shepherd. Absolutely. This analogy is to show how closely Christ watches and takes care of us and how those who His are to listen to His voice. We all know that we’re not literal sheep. Understand that the purpose of analogies are to illustrate specific points. At another point, the unrepentant are liked at the day of judgment to goats. So if “once a sheep, always a sheep” applies, then should “once a goat, always a goat”? Of course we know that’s not true since sinners can and do give their lives to Christ to become one of His. Be careful not to overstretch an analogy. Here’s another analogy for you: In John 15, Christ is also likened to the True Vine and we are the branches. In this analogy, Christ admonishes us to remain in Him and to bear much fruit. Christ also says that those who will not abide in Him are withered, removed by the Husbandman (or Gardener), God the Father (vs 2), and are cast into the fire where they are burned.
I’ve addressed several other eternal security issues under my category “Salvation Study”. If you’re interested, feel free to browse through and read any posts that catch your eye.
God bless as you seek Him and study His Word.
Rachael